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Offline AmbientMoto

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Re: Trickle charging via usb port or cigarette lighter
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2019, 12:55:54 AM »
GregJet is correct... thats what I get for posting whilst working! For anyone reading... yes the correct battery chemistry to look for is lithium IRON aka LiFePO4, NOT lithium-ion!

Online Aggie95

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Re: Trickle charging via usb port or cigarette lighter
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2019, 05:54:22 PM »
I'd like to offer this.

One day, a few weeks ago, I made a 350 mile ride and then parked my bike for about two and a half weeks.  I was surprised to discover my battery discharged such that it would not crank the motor.  This is not normal.  These bikes should not need a trickle charger to maintain the battery except for very long periods of at least several months.  The current required to keep the computer operating when the bike is not running, on mine, is only 0.08 mA, or 0.0008 A.  The stock battery is a 9 Ah battery.  Doing the math 9/0.0008 indicates the battery will drive the system when not running for 11,250 hours, or 469 days!  If one is letting a bike sit for this long without starting, one needs a trickle charger, or one needs to disconnect the battery.

What you likely need to do is what I did, find the drain on your battery!  I found that the cig lighter/USB port that the previous owner had installed on my bike was drawing 17 mA with nothing connected to it!  That much current will completely drain the battery in 529 hours (about 22 days)!  I don't think this is necessary either; I think this is simply a typical low quality Chinese product that drains current when it should not!  I have not confirmed this with an Electrical Engineer, but I believe it should not require current to power a dead port.  To temporarily fix the problem, without replacing the charging port (which I will do as soon as I find one that is not Chinese), I moved the supply wire from always on to a key-controlled terminal in my Denali Power Hub.  You mentioned you have a USB port on your bike, you may want to check it for current draw and fix that.

A couple of days ago, I was backing my tractor into the shop and I knocked my bike over; with a few minor scratches and after more than a few off-color utterances, I stood the bike back up and went about my doin's.  The next morning the battery was dead.  I pondered this for a couple of days until I had time to do some testing.  I couldn't figure out how dropping the bike could kill the battery, and it didn't.  The drain on the battery was from my Garmin GPS.  During my last ride, I switched it from key-controlled to always on because I got tired of it rebooting and having to find itself again every time I turned the bike off for a moment.  But, now I see I need to remove the GPS when not riding for a while because it drains the battery at about 70 mA when turned off and 100 mA when turned on!  That  will completely drain the battery in 90 hours!

I'm not a fan of trickle chargers.  I have them and use them, but I don't like them!  There is one on my DC welder/backup generator as I write this!  It cooked the original battery, and will likely cook the current battery, eventually.  I even design "trickle" chargers into the equipment I manufacture.  I quote trickle because I employ very smart battery maintainers.  These are quite sophisticated maintainers and are expensive, but they still kill batteries eventually.  If the battery is not cooked by the trickle charger, it will, over time, develop "memory", which decreases its available power.  Some battery chemistry is much less prone to developing memory than other chemistry, but all will eventually succumb to memory.

I also don't like to have battery chargers operating when I'm not present.  My fear may be unfounded, but I always fear chargers or batteries failing under a charge and causing a fire.  Call me over-cautious, and maybe I am!  Anyway, I say "fix the problem", don't put a band-aid on it!  If you need help finding the drain, I, and many others on this forum, are ready to offer guidance!  :169:

1971-1973: '67 CL77 (305 Scrambler), Sold, because my wife said to...
2018: '14 CB500X, The dream bike of my youth!  Thanks, Son

Offline EscCtrl

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Re: Trickle charging via usb port or cigarette lighter
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2019, 06:51:54 PM »
*Originally Posted by Aggie95 [+]
I'd like to offer this.

One day, a few weeks ago, I made a 350 mile ride and then parked my bike for about two and a half weeks.  I was surprised to discover my battery discharged such that it would not crank the motor.  This is not normal.  These bikes should not need a trickle charger to maintain the battery except for very long periods of at least several months.  The current required to keep the computer operating when the bike is not running, on mine, is only 0.08 mA, or 0.0008 A.  The stock battery is a 9 Ah battery.  Doing the math 9/0.0008 indicates the battery will drive the system when not running for 11,250 hours, or 469 days!  If one is letting a bike sit for this long without starting, one needs a trickle charger, or one needs to disconnect the battery.

What you likely need to do is what I did, find the drain on your battery!  I found that the cig lighter/USB port that the previous owner had installed on my bike was drawing 17 mA with nothing connected to it!  That much current will completely drain the battery in 529 hours (about 22 days)!  I don't think this is necessary either; I think this is simply a typical low quality Chinese product that drains current when it should not!  I have not confirmed this with an Electrical Engineer, but I believe it should not require current to power a dead port.  To temporarily fix the problem, without replacing the charging port (which I will do as soon as I find one that is not Chinese), I moved the supply wire from always on to a key-controlled terminal in my Denali Power Hub.  You mentioned you have a USB port on your bike, you may want to check it for current draw and fix that.

A couple of days ago, I was backing my tractor into the shop and I knocked my bike over; with a few minor scratches and after more than a few off-color utterances, I stood the bike back up and went about my doin's.  The next morning the battery was dead.  I pondered this for a couple of days until I had time to do some testing.  I couldn't figure out how dropping the bike could kill the battery, and it didn't.  The drain on the battery was from my Garmin GPS.  During my last ride, I switched it from key-controlled to always on because I got tired of it rebooting and having to find itself again every time I turned the bike off for a moment.  But, now I see I need to remove the GPS when not riding for a while because it drains the battery at about 70 mA when turned off and 100 mA when turned on!  That  will completely drain the battery in 90 hours!

I'm not a fan of trickle chargers.  I have them and use them, but I don't like them!  There is one on my DC welder/backup generator as I write this!  It cooked the original battery, and will likely cook the current battery, eventually.  I even design "trickle" chargers into the equipment I manufacture.  I quote trickle because I employ very smart battery maintainers.  These are quite sophisticated maintainers and are expensive, but they still kill batteries eventually.  If the battery is not cooked by the trickle charger, it will, over time, develop "memory", which decreases its available power.  Some battery chemistry is much less prone to developing memory than other chemistry, but all will eventually succumb to memory.

I also don't like to have battery chargers operating when I'm not present.  My fear may be unfounded, but I always fear chargers or batteries failing under a charge and causing a fire.  Call me over-cautious, and maybe I am!  Anyway, I say "fix the problem", don't put a band-aid on it!  If you need help finding the drain, I, and many others on this forum, are ready to offer guidance!  :169:

The charging ports usually have a surge protector or voltage stabilizer. This bleeds off current over time as it stays energized to be ready to start powering a device. USB ports have a converter to reduce and stabilize the 12v DC to 5v DC for charging small electronics. I have advocated for the use of relays and fuse blocks to power up/down these devices when the motorcycle is started/shut down. With my set up, my bike has set for nearly a year with no trickle charger and starts just fine. The only time my bike failed to start was when the OE battery went bad on me during a ride.

Also, beware of trickle chargers. Even though the outlet it is plugged into may be protected by a fuse or breaker they can and will cause fires. I caught mine ready to blow the battery on one of my bikes. It had been on trickle for a month or two. I happen to be in my building. I smelled burning plastic. Walked over and the battery had swelled. Unplugged it and checked everything. Tested the trickle charger. It was putting out 19v. It was a name brand Battery Tinder.

As batteries age they become intolerant of ambient temps and can have a reduction in storage capacity, among other things. That is why the math looks good in text but doesn't add up in the real world. I have seen charging ports kill batteries in just a few days. Before I wised up, I chased a battery drain for two weeks under the impression that the ciggy socket did not use power unless something was plugged in. After I got that idea out of my head, I disconnected it and all was right again. It sucked to work all week dreaming of the weekend ride to find the battery dead when it's time to set out.

Offline Oyabun

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Re: Trickle charging via usb port or cigarette lighter
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2019, 08:39:44 PM »
*Originally Posted by Aggie95 [+]
  I have not confirmed this with an Electrical Engineer, but I believe it should not require current to power a dead port. 
Thing is, that there is a power conversion step down converter built to that USB socket. As of today they have a minimum load at all times, regardless if they made in China or not. Yours actually have decent standby consumption. That's why all vehicles have ACC switched 12V circuits so these parasitic draws can be eliminated.
These bikes are designed so that they don't need trickle chargers - it is the wrongly connected aftermarket wiring what drawns them. I also suggest to connect the Garmin to a switched circuit. If you set it to stay powered, it will run from it's internal battery when ignition is off, and will recharge when the engine runs.
BTW one of my degrees is in EE.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 08:40:34 PM by Oyabun »

Online Aggie95

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Re: Trickle charging via usb port or cigarette lighter
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2019, 12:53:38 AM »
Oyabun, thanks for the info.  I had a feeling that might be the case with the step-down converter for the USB, but I had not been able to confirm it.

As for the Garmin, that is the way I would normally operate it, except, my battery has succumbed to the memory issue as a result of being plugged into my truck constantly for several years without exercising the battery.  A new battery is $40 and Garmin no longer supports this unit with maps.  So, I'm running it off the bike and saving up for a newer Garmin...  I just didn't expect it to draw nearly a tenth of an amp when turned off.  Once I get a new one, I'll certainly connect it the way you suggest, but, in the mean time, I will pull the plug on the Garmin when the bike is going to be idle for an extended period.

*Originally Posted by Oyabun [+]
These bikes are designed so that they don't need trickle chargers - it is the wrongly connected aftermarket wiring what drawns them.

That' really the point I was trying to make!! 
Thanks again for chiming in!
BTW, one of my degrees, oh yeah, my only degree, is in ME! :169:

1971-1973: '67 CL77 (305 Scrambler), Sold, because my wife said to...
2018: '14 CB500X, The dream bike of my youth!  Thanks, Son

 


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